GrowlSafari now in /Application

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randyandy
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GrowlSafari now in /Application

Postby randyandy » Sat Sep 26, 2009 8:23 pm

Hello,

Since recent versions of Growl, the extra tool GrowlSafari is no longer installed in
/Library/InputManagers/GrowlSafari but in /Applications/GrowlSafari by the .pkg installer.

it's a bit annoying having this (new) app cluttering the root of /Application.
if this tool is now aiming as being seen as a simple .app, could it be released not as a .pkg
so as to let the user put the .app in the folder he prefers (as for HardwareGrowler for instance).

Regards.

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boredzo
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Re: GrowlSafari now in /Application

Postby boredzo » Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:18 pm

No. Because GrowlSafari.app injects the GrowlSafari bundle into a running process (every time you run Safari), it needs to have special permissions. Therefore, it needs the Installer package to set those permissions.

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broken_chaos
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Re: GrowlSafari now in /Application

Postby broken_chaos » Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:12 am

This annoys me a little as well. Would the Utilities sub-directory possibly be a better location choice, while still allowing the permissions to be set at install?

randyandy
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Re: GrowlSafari now in /Application

Postby randyandy » Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:29 am

boredzo wrote:No. Because GrowlSafari.app injects the GrowlSafari bundle into a running process (every time you run Safari), it needs to have special permissions. Therefore, it needs the Installer package to set those permissions.

OK. therefore why not have the installer put this GrowlSafari bundle where it use to be before:
in /Library/InputManagers/GrowlSafari?
Is it not more possible?

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boredzo
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Re: GrowlSafari now in /Application

Postby boredzo » Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:31 am

Why on earth would you put an application into the InputManagers folder?

There are Input Manager applications, but GrowlSafari isn't one of them. It's much more conventional application than Input Manager application.

The old GrowlSafari was an Input Manager bundle, so it belonged in InputManagers. The new one is not, so it does not.

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Re: GrowlSafari now in /Application

Postby randyandy » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:51 am

boredzo wrote:Why on earth would you put an application into the InputManagers folder?
...
The old GrowlSafari was an Input Manager bundle, so it belonged in InputManagers. The new one is not, so it does not.


Why? because it doesn't behave at all as a usual application.
Of course, I believe you on the technical point of view, but from a user point of view, it's not like a usual application:

- it belongs to /Applications, but (maybe after a first launch days ago) it runs with Safari even if I don't
launch this application from this Application menu, isn't it?
(from my user side: I never relaunch GrowlSafari and it is here and working)

- therefore, it rather behaves as some plugin that would be embedded in Safari

That's why I find it surprising and annoying having it in /Application, visible at the root, to never have to relaunch it from here.

And if we dig into GrowlSafari.app, we find something hidden: GrowlSafari.bundle, that's why I thought it was (maybe)
not so different that the former bundle that had the same structure with a GrowlSafari.bundle,
but located in the above mentioned folder...

Then to conclude with what you explained me above, the reasons I am surprised (and annoyed) having it in /Applications is
- that it does not have to be opened to run (nor in the login items): looks like a plugin...
- then it clutters the /Applications (which is already not so empty) since you can't choose its place when installing, and you never re-run it (even to desinstall).

So why on earth is it useful in /Applications ? ;-) ;-) ;-) (forgive me)

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boredzo
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Re: GrowlSafari now in /Application

Postby boredzo » Wed Sep 30, 2009 5:18 pm

randyandy wrote:it runs with Safari even if I don't launch this application from this Application menu, isn't it?


No. It's an application. You have to run it for it to work.

(from my user side: I never relaunch GrowlSafari and it is here and working)


Either you've never quit it (applications that are running tend to stay running), or you have it in your Login Items and have logged out and back in.

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Re: GrowlSafari now in /Application

Postby randyandy » Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:03 pm

boredzo wrote:Either you've never quit it (applications that are running tend to stay running), or you have it in your Login Items and have logged out and back in.


Wouah, finally this thread was useful! Your previous information striked me (since I always had a GrowlSafari present in the processes, for instance when listed with "ps aux")...

Then, I rebooted, removed everything that I could from previous GrowlSafari installs (when it was an InputManager) then reinstalled the new version... And "Yes", I can say that before running it explicitely, nothing is running: my GrowlSafari now correctly behaves like an application!

Thank you very much! I cleaned my session :smile:

By the way, as a conclusion:
- OK GrowlSafari behaves like an application (need to be launched), except that without any icon in the Dock it's quite hard to stop this application
- on the other hand HardwareGrowler displays an icon in the Dock (that some people sometimes would love not to see anymore, I must admit)

I don't have a strong preference, but maybe those "Growl Extra" could follow a similar choice: visible or hidden, but the same?
(My little preference is to be visible ;-))

Thanks again for all your explanations (it lead us far away from the initial subject: should this application be installed in another place than the root Application menu :smile: )

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boredzo
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Re: GrowlSafari now in /Application

Postby boredzo » Thu Oct 01, 2009 1:23 am

randyandy wrote:By the way, as a conclusion:
- OK GrowlSafari behaves like an application (need to be launched), except that without any icon in the Dock it's quite hard to stop this application
- on the other hand HardwareGrowler displays an icon in the Dock (that some people sometimes would love not to see anymore, I must admit)


Yeah, I had this same realization earlier today or yesterday. This definitely cries out for consistency.

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Re: GrowlSafari now in /Application

Postby Ensoniq » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:57 am

My vote (as if it counts, ha!) would be to install the GrowlSafari "application" into ~/Library/Application Support/GrowlSafari

Yes, it may technically be an application. But it has no icon and looks pretty ugly sitting in /Applications. It doesn't belong in InputManagers, as it's not one. But it's an eyesore, and would be better off hidden away someplace like it used to be.

My 3 cents. (I'm giving an extra cent to be polite.)

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boredzo
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Re: GrowlSafari now in /Application

Postby boredzo » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:30 am

Ensoniq wrote:Yes, it may technically be an application. But it has no icon and looks pretty ugly sitting in /Applications.


A better icon would be welcome.

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Re: GrowlSafari now in /Application

Postby randyandy » Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:58 pm

boredzo wrote:Yeah, I had this same realization earlier today or yesterday. This definitely cries out for consistency.

It's worth considering opening new topics since we start diverting from the initial subject :smile:

But, in that wish of "consistency", I would add another point.
Another post in this forum explained that the "new" version of GrowlTunes (currently an external appplication) would be a GrowlTunes plugin (see http://forums.cocoaforge.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=21110)
=> this is exactly the opposite way from GrowSafari changing from Safari plugin to external application.

From a user point of view (totally unaware of the technical difficulty) I would say that my ideal would be:

1- For a Growl extra dedicated to a particular application (like GrowlMail, GrowlTunes, GrowlTunes)
=> If possible, installed as plugin in the concerned application would be logical
(and why not systematically add to them a button for easy uninstalling as some users ask how to uninstall... Or add the uninstall function to the package installer as it is often possible...)

2- For a more global extra (like Hardware Growler for instance)
=> as external application.
(and why not add the functionality that if launched from the login items, or listed in the login items, then the application hides its icon from the Dock).

That was my two cents :smile:

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Re: GrowlSafari now in /Application

Postby rudy » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:32 pm

randyandy wrote:=> this is exactly the opposite way from GrowSafari changing from Safari plugin to external application.


GrowlSafari was never a Safari plugin. iTunes provides a plugin api that allows us to be loaded on launch, Safari does not. Safari only provides a plugin API in the context of handlers for web page content, nothing in the form of extending the Safari application as a whole.

randyandy wrote:From a user point of view (totally unaware of the technical difficulty) I would say that my ideal would be:

1- For a Growl extra dedicated to a particular application (like GrowlMail, GrowlTunes, GrowlTunes)
=> If possible, installed as plugin in the concerned application would be logical
(and why not systematically add to them a button for easy uninstalling as some users ask how to uninstall... Or add the uninstall function to the package installer as it is often possible...)


we have internally discussed doing away with the Extras folder on the dmg and instead providing a means of installing/removing/updating them from an Extras tab in the Growl prefPane, I think as the Extras folder is right now, its entirely too confusing for much of the user-base. We recently learned that people thought GrowlMail was Growl. The process of installing/updating/removing can definitely be improved upon.
C4 & Demolitions Expert / Ambrosia Software, Inc. / http://www.AmbrosiaSW.com/

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boredzo
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Re: GrowlSafari now in /Application

Postby boredzo » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:42 pm

rudy wrote:We recently learned that people thought GrowlMail was Growl.


Not really that recent. It's just that we've had a swarm of this recently as updating GrowlMail is much more important in 1.2 (since Snow Leopard refuses to load earlier versions).

Also, it's not really that they think Growl == GrowlMail; it's that they think installing (or, more precisely, updating) Growl will also update GrowlMail.

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Re: GrowlSafari now in /Application

Postby randyandy » Thu Oct 01, 2009 8:46 pm

rudy wrote:GrowlSafari was never a Safari plugin. iTunes provides a plugin api that allows us to be loaded on launch, Safari does not. [...]

You are right to be precise.
But what I meant by using "plugin" was simply to describe a piece of software that is plugged or embbeded into the concerned application somehow (GrowlSafari bundle was before an InputManager you wrote)... As opposition to an external application.

rudy wrote:we have internally discussed doing away with the Extras folder on the dmg and instead providing a means of installing/removing/updating them from an Extras tab in the Growl prefPane, I think as the Extras folder is right now, its entirely too confusing for much of the user-base. We recently learned that people thought GrowlMail was Growl. The process of installing/updating/removing can definitely be improved upon.

Oh, that's a very good idea: I'm fan of this idea of an Extra tab in Growl preference pane for "official" Growl Extra tools...


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