new tabs management features

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new tabs management features

Postby mith » Tue Jul 17, 2007 6:56 pm

I just wanted to send my kudos to Kent Sutherland and the AdiumX team, the new tabs features are simply GREAT and we've been waiting for this for a long time and now is pleasure to use them!

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Postby Yohmi » Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:27 am

Yes, it's great, but... I don't know if it's a bug, but now I have an arrow on the right when there is a lot of tabs opened... first, I believed it was an optional enhancement... but then I tried to have the old fashion tab management (with cut name, which let me know instantly if someone told something even if I don't have his full name) but could'nt find it... neither in "general", nor in appearance, or messages, or advanced>messages...
Sorry if there is already a discussion about that, I just wondered if it was a choice or a bug, and if it was a choice... didn't find it wise ^^

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Postby Catfish_Man » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:21 am

That was a design choice. We're not entirely sure it was the correct one though; there was some discussion on irc today that indicated we may need to investigate changing it.

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Postby Yohmi » Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:25 pm

Thank you for your quick answer :)
After another day of test, I find it very annoying... I can't know if someone over the arrow send me a message, i can't even know how many people I got over the arrow... I don't think I'm the only one who stares at his messenger just by let it on the background with always a little space let for the tabs... which let know instantly (even if you've got a disappearing dock) when and who acts... (thanks to status icons)

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Postby djmori » Fri Jul 20, 2007 3:24 am

how about something like this?

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Postby Echidnae » Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:27 am

djmori wrote:how about something like this?


This is actually implemented in the branch and trunk nightly builds of Camino, if you need a working example. Works very well, in my opinion.

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Postby mith » Fri Jul 20, 2007 4:20 pm

This approach doesn't seem to solve the problem described by Yohmi unless the arrow will start blinking.

I personally rarely have so many open tabs, but, if I had to, I think a viable solution would be to have the arrow to blink if new messages have appeared, then I click on the arrow, see a list of the other tabs and the last user(s) who sent me a message should blink so that I'll know which one I should pick.

@Yohmi, why not take advantage of the multiple chat windows and split your buddies into 2 or more windows with a bunch of tabs?

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Postby Yohmi » Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:28 pm

mith wrote:@Yohmi, why not take advantage of the multiple chat windows and split your buddies into 2 or more windows with a bunch of tabs?


It would take too much place... and I don't want to have three windows each time my friends got composed names... and don't want too to have to drag a tab from each new contact. In fact, the only way to have more contacts displayed is to use left o r right tabs... the problem is that It take place again, I find it aesthetic, and more important, it's not in my "free zone" at all... I just have a free zone in the lower right corner, which just let me know if someone told me something, then I push my shortcut to bring adium in front, and use my "command + arrow" shortcut to fly to the correct tab.
With the new system, I can't know how much time it will take, because I can have maybe five tabs across the arrow... perhaps they are free, perhaps they are full of new messages, I can't know. And I can't know who launched a new dfiscussion just by watching my free zone, and I can't drag tabs which are across the arrow anyway...
I don't think I'm the only one who have hundreds of contacts, and dozens of chat windows opened at a time... that's why tabs are very useful... and now, not anymore... I'm sorry, I'm surely very boring, but after about two years of Adium, I get used to this feature ^^

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Postby ajmas » Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:15 am

Another approach could be for the tab of the chat session where the new messages appear to pop into view. Could be problematic if you are talkin to many people at once with tabs rearranging themselves constantly.

Other than Yohmi's idea of using the old approach, has anyone seen any solution that seem to work elsewhere? It needs to take into account the fact we need to show the fact a new message has appeared.

Hiding stuff is no the best solution when trying to be clear where the new notification is coming from. Also the solution needs to take into account that the user may have multiple active chats. I have seen people who talk to five people at a time, indepedently.

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Postby ofri » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:38 pm

mith wrote:This approach doesn't seem to solve the problem described by Yohmi unless the arrow will start blinking.

Actually, this sounds like a really good idea to me. Have the arrow do a pretty glow effect and somehow mark the affected menus in the overflow menu.
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Postby Yohmi » Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:53 am

ofri wrote:
mith wrote:This approach doesn't seem to solve the problem described by Yohmi unless the arrow will start blinking.

Actually, this sounds like a really good idea to me. Have the arrow do a pretty glow effect and somehow mark the affected menus in the overflow menu.


Even if you can't know who talk, and how many other tabs you have, and which tab is it... Adium is very flexibe, you can even choose the tab you want directly by typing its number, and if you got "long named" contacts, even if you have nine different numbers, you can only use 4 tabs (and the others, you type randomly "oh nop, it's not this one... oh, it's not eight... hmm... not nine... maybe seven ? let's try")... for me, it's a wayback, cleaning by masking is as silly as "Windows wants to clean-up your desktop by packing some shortcuts into a folder" to me ^^

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Postby evands » Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:23 am

ofri wrote:
mith wrote:This approach doesn't seem to solve the problem described by Yohmi unless the arrow will start blinking.

Actually, this sounds like a really good idea to me. Have the arrow do a pretty glow effect and somehow mark the affected menus in the overflow menu.

There's code in PSMTabBarControl that looks like it would do something like this (not a glow/fade, but just an icon overlay of some sort), but it's either not enabled for us or is not working.
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Postby df0notfound » Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:20 am

Echidnae wrote:
djmori wrote:how about something like this?


This is actually implemented in the branch and trunk nightly builds of Camino, if you need a working example. Works very well, in my opinion.


Anyone who has been unfortunate enough to use dreamweaver will know that arrows either side of a tab bar is tedious as hell to navigate around.

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Postby Echidnae » Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:53 am

df0notfound wrote:
Echidnae wrote:
djmori wrote:how about something like this?


This is actually implemented in the branch and trunk nightly builds of Camino, if you need a working example. Works very well, in my opinion.


Anyone who has been unfortunate enough to use dreamweaver will know that arrows either side of a tab bar is tedious as hell to navigate around.


Well I haven't used that app, but I've been using the nightly builds of Camino with that kind of thing implemented for quite a while now, and it is a lot easier to keep track of open tabs. Might not work well for dreamweaver, but it's great for a web browser. Dunno how well it would work in Adium though.

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Postby df0notfound » Thu Jul 26, 2007 8:16 am

Safari, if you can't see a tab then its in the more tabs arrow

Dreamweaver, if you can't see a tab, well do you remember if it was to the left of you or right of you? oh left go and click the left arrow a few times then, oh you were wrong better click right alot then.

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Postby Echidnae » Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:25 pm

df0notfound wrote:Safari, if you can't see a tab then its in the more tabs arrow

Dreamweaver, if you can't see a tab, well do you remember if it was to the left of you or right of you? oh left go and click the left arrow a few times then, oh you were wrong better click right alot then.


As I said, it works great in a browser. Safari's way is just too inefficient. Camino has arrows on both sides, *and* a more tabs arrow to the far right that has all of the tabs open, whether you can see them or not. Navigating the tab bar is easy because you can use a scroll wheel or two finger trackpad scrolling to get to the other tabs out of view quickly. I would recommend trying what I'm actually talking about before trashing it (ie Camino, not Dreamweaver), as it appears you have not.

http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/ ... -1.6-M1.8/

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Postby df0notfound » Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:27 am

Echidnae wrote:
df0notfound wrote:Safari, if you can't see a tab then its in the more tabs arrow

Dreamweaver, if you can't see a tab, well do you remember if it was to the left of you or right of you? oh left go and click the left arrow a few times then, oh you were wrong better click right alot then.


As I said, it works great in a browser. Safari's way is just too inefficient. Camino has arrows on both sides, *and* a more tabs arrow to the far right that has all of the tabs open, whether you can see them or not. Navigating the tab bar is easy because you can use a scroll wheel or two finger trackpad scrolling to get to the other tabs out of view quickly. I would recommend trying what I'm actually talking about before trashing it (ie Camino, not Dreamweaver), as it appears you have not.

http://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/ ... -1.6-M1.8/


I've had a go with it,yes it is far superior to the shit dreamweaver arrows. However including two interfaces for the same function (left and right arrows are one, and the traditional system standard safari method) proves that one of the two is not doing the job sufficiently.

Good design is not shoving everything for every possibility, its about knowing exactly what you can take away till you reach that magic zone of simplicity and usability.

How many lights are on a generic PC laptop? about 10 for god knows what reasons, how many on a macbook? 2

Safari how many buttons? 5
Internet Explorer 13

To me this is the sort of thing I would expect to see in Trillian, developers not too design aware who would think up quite a cool way to navigate tabs and would sellotape it on to the side of the existing way because it wasn't quite good enough to completely wipe it out and thats exactly how you end up with a cluttered and confusing interface.

Dropping the arrows and just including the mousewheel functionality might be good however, because its there if you know about it (similar to switch buffers) and lets face it once someone uses it with the scroll wheel they will never click the left/right arrows again.

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Postby Echidnae » Sat Jul 28, 2007 5:33 am

Well that's funny that you say they're putting two interfaces in here to do one job, and also say that it's overkill, but the whole mentality that drives Camino is to avoid overkill and situations that you describe. I don't know if you know any of the devs that are involved in that project, but I used to be involved with Camino and they do give a lot of thought into any additional preference or menu, etc.

Anyway, putting two arrows on either side of the tabs lets you know where you are as far as what is in view and what is not. The arrows will become darker if there are tabs in that direction that are not in view, or lighter if there's nothing else in that direction. The see all little menu thing is not overkill...it's a small addition that does what you described in Safari. If you have a million tabs open, it gives you a quick list of all of them, and it hardly takes up any space. I would certainly not call that clutter.

While what the Camino nightly builds have implemented may not be perfect for an IM app, it does give a better foundation than the current one in the Adium betas. I've found that to be frustrating to deal with.

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Postby bgannin » Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:07 am

It's really bad form to be denigrating when you expect others to value your input and then act on it to code that. In addition, the developers balance a base of more a million active users, it's a fine balancing act that requires thoughtful consideration, not simply "look what X does, your Z sucks because I can't Y, etc."
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Postby Echidnae » Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:07 am

bgannin wrote:It's really bad form to be denigrating when you expect others to value your input and then act on it to code that. In addition, the developers balance a base of more a million active users, it's a fine balancing act that requires thoughtful consideration, not simply "look what X does, your Z sucks because I can't Y, etc."


Is that directed at me? Because I wasn't trying to be denigrating at all. The only mention I talked about Adium's tab feature was in my last two sentences of my last post. I do find it frustrating to use...that's not me trying to be a jerk, just my honest opinion. And from CatfishMan's earlier post, I thought the new tab system was under review.


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